The One About Permission

Amber: Hey, Monica

Tia: Hey, Monica

Amber: Welcome to Hey Monica, the podcast that helps you drop the perfectionism to make space for what really matters in your home, in your food, and in your life. Amber, a weight-inclusive licensed nutritionist and founder of Whole You Nutrition and Meal Planning Collective

Tia: And I'm Tia, a professional home organizer and founder of Room For Serenity. On today's show, we are talking about permission. Permission is an important step in recovery from perfectionism and making your life work for you and not the other way around. But first, confessions. Amber, do you wanna kick us off?

Amber: Yes. so my confession today that I do not wash the dishes or clean the kitchen after making dinner. I'm done

Tia: Tsk, tsk, Amber

Amber: I feel like that is such a thing. I've heard so many people, and especially people that have, a chef or professional cooking background talking about, closing the kitchen at the end of the day. putting in the work to, like, shut everything down, and going as far as, I don't know, mopping the floor. I mean, that's a topic for another day. But,

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: um, no, I do not do that. I'm tired at the end of the day, and the last thing I wanna do after sitting down and eating dinner is get up and clean the kitchen. So this is what I do instead. While I am cooking, do clean as I go, so it's not, like, a complete disaster.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: I neatly stack the dishes that we use for dinner. But more often, I will wash the dishes either the next morning, works really well with kind of my flow of the day, I'll wait and wash them before I'm getting ready to make dinner the next night. It just kinda depends on the day. But the last thing I wanna do after I eat dinner is get up and do work, so the dishes, they sit. Also, I don't have a dishwasher in my house, so that might be part of it, too. if I was just loading things into a dishwasher, maybe I'd feel differently. But hand washing is not the move after

Tia: Yeah, no, hand washing is the worst. My husband and I both hate hand washing things. and kudos to him. He's really great at doing the dishes, very consistently. I would prefer if we- and this is more on me, this isn't on him, but like I would prefer if we had the kitchen fully, like all the dishes done and having a clean kitchen to wake up to. That would just be better for my mindset overall. But I agree with you. I'm tired. I'm exhausted at the end of the day, so it doesn't always get done. Sometimes it does, and in those moments I'm like, "Ah, this is amazing." sometimes I'm just tired. I just need to go to bed.

Tia: So it gets done

Amber: And I think this might be a difference too. I do not have children, so,

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: my, like, hit the morning running is really just about getting myself ready and, not even out the door anymore. I, I work in a room attached to my kitchen, so, um, it's, it's different. I might feel differently if I had, small humans that I needed to shepherd through the morning. I could see that adding to that,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: clutter and fatigue of the day and

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: anxiety. but

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: my current situation, so I let the dishes sit after dinner.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: you, Tia? Do you have a confession for us today?

Tia: My confession is I do not like to fold clothes. And I know for anybody that's watched any Marie Kondo videos or any of the professional home organizers on YouTube or Instagram, they have all these lovely ways of folding clothes and making them stack so perfectly

Tia: It looks amazing. It really does. And for those of you who do that, kudos man. That is awesome. I love that for you. I don't love that for myself at all. I don't like folding clothes. It's not … In fact, it's become a point of not necessarily contention between my husband and myself, but the way that I fold his T-shirts, he's like, "Don't touch them, please. Just don't touch my T-shirts." And I was visiting my wonderful friend Megan. Megan, you know who you are if you're listening. I was visiting her once, and I was helping her fold her family's clothes, and we were both just sitting on the couch folding.

Tia: she didn't … She's so kind. She didn't say anything, but the way she was watching me as I was folding her clothes.

Tia: Eventually I was like, "I don't think I'm doing this the way that you want it done." And she's like, "It's okay. I can just do it, honey." And I was like,

Amber: I love that

Tia: "Okay." And eventually, somehow this ended up in a text message between Megan, my husband Adam, who's back at home, and myself, who's visiting Megan. And it just became this, laughing session at Tia, who is, terrible at folding T-shirts. And both of them are like, "You're such an organized person. Like, how do you not do this well?" And I'm like, "I hate it. I don't like it. It's not my favorite thing."

Amber: Your, uh, high school job was not working at The Gap, I'm

Tia: No. Mm-mm. No. Yeah, in my early organizing days when I was single, solo, and had all the time in the world, I actually had this contraption, and I'm sure some people have seen this online, that was almost like The Gap sort of situation where you lay down your clothes on this thing, and then you fold it one way, and then you fold it another way, and then you have this beautifully stacked looking closet. I did that for probably a solid three or four months before I was like, "This is ridiculous. I hate this."

Tia: I still actually have it. I need to get rid of it. I need to declutter that thing, man.

Amber: Yeah,

Tia: I don't use it.

Amber: It

Tia: No, so what I do, my solution is, I f- I just hang, like, 95% of anything that I wear. Pants, shorts, T-shirts, tank tops, everything. The only drawer that I put clothes in that's, in an actual pull-out drawer, underwear, socks, bras. And you better know it, I have little, dividers for where the socks go, and where the underwear goes, and where the bras go. Are they folded? Heck no. Who needs to fold underwear? That's what I say.

Tia: Why in the world? S- and this is coming from a professional organizer. Seriously, if it doesn't work for you, it's not gonna stick, so don't do

Amber: found, you found a solution that works for you. I do have to admit, mean, I don't love folding clothes, but I definitely took that Marie Kondo fold your clothes and have them standing up like files instead

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: on top of each other.

Tia: Uh-huh

Amber: I did that and I was like, "Now I can actually see all of

Tia: Yeah, you totally can.

Amber: instead

Tia: Yes

Amber: one or two and not quite sure what's below that. So I've

Tia: Yep.

Amber: that to heart, and I do that with- in most of my drawers. I also do fold my underwear,

Tia: Oh, Amber

Amber: feels so weird to say. But I do

Tia: This is gonna be

Amber: like file thing with it, because then… Like, I have different,

Tia: So you can see them.

Amber: like for different occasions, so then they're all, file folder organized

Tia: Y- and you can find them

Amber: pull them out when I need them.

Tia: Yeah, you know what? If I, if I did put my T-shirts in a drawer, it would drive me nuts if I had them all stacked top to bottom so that I couldn't see them. That would drive me nuts. I would want to go the Marie Kondo way, where you could actually file folder, like you can see each one.

Tia: But because I know myself, and I'm never gonna do that, I hang all of my T-shirts. My T-shirts have hanging racks, and they're all like… And when I'm in my best, whatever, organizing mode, I- they're all in, color-coordinated spots. that's not what my closet looks like right now, but eventually it'll get back there. Priorities, man. Anyway, so yeah, that is my confession is I do not like folding clothes, therefore I do not fold clothes. Therefore, if you ever want me folding your clothes, it will not look good.

Amber: I also wanna point out to the listeners that the only thing that I could see on our show sheet was, I don't like to fold clothes. So in my head, the I don't like to fold clothes was she was gonna have mountainous piles of clothes in laundry baskets, like in a

Tia: Oh

Amber: room. So the fact that you're like still like hanging stuff and putting it away, you definitely get credit for that. So you found a solution that works for you that does not involve

Tia: Yeah. Yeah, I don't like folding. I choose a hanger over folding any day. Mm-hmm.

Amber: All right, as Tia mentioned at the top of the show, our topic for today is permission. And I think this is such an interesting topic because even as fully formed adults, I mean, I've been a- an adult for how many decades now, it does not cease to amaze me how many things we simply will not allow ourselves to do in our life because we got a message somewhere along the line from society that it's not okay to do that. or if we do something that we got that message about, we keep it a secret, and we feel some guilt or some shame related to it. So finding that ability to, give yourself permission can be really powerful.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: Tia, where have you had to give yourself permission in life?

Tia: Ooh, this is a deep one. I am giving myself permission to let go of clothes that no longer fit my body. And man, this is tough because it's, it's personal, and I know it's a tough one for a lot of my clients, too. My body has changed significantly after giving birth to my daughter, and now going through perimenopause. my weight now is something that I n- feel like I need to, quote-unquote, "manage". and I am trying so very hard to have a positive mindset around my body because I do not want my daughter to grow up thinking that fat is bad, and I don't want her to have a negative view of body image.

Tia: So I am going through this rollercoaster of balancing my body, like accepting my body the way that it is now, while also needing to make healthier choices because I do need to exercise more than I do right now. I'm extremely sedentary because I work so much at my desk, and I-- any free time that I have is sucked up with caring for kids and caring for the dogs, and I, and then I work late at night, and then I just, I… Yeah, that's a whole other topic, but I, I'm on this-- It's a tough balancing act between accepting my body the way that it is and also realizing like, yeah, I also need to make some healthier choices, too.

Tia: but there is this quiet, very consistent voice in the back of my head that's like, "I just want my old body back. I just, I just really want my old body back because I don't like…" I look in the mirror now, and I don't recognize myself anymore. And, there's a lot of emotion behind that, and so I just, I'm here to say that if I'm ever working with you as an organizer, and we're working through your closet, and it's emotional, believe me, I understand you. I do. Maybe not specifically your path and your mindset behind your own, 'cause everyone is individual. they have their own stories. But, oof, I get how tough it is, and those emotions show up in our closet like I should be able to fit into this.

Tia: I should be able to fit into this, or this was so cute, and I really wish that it still fit the way that it used to. Or, gah, I only worn this once for a special occasion, and I really wish that I could wear it again. It's easier sometimes just to stuff those emotions down and leave the things in the closet and not deal with them. So it's almost like this perfect scenario of, quote-unquote, "leaving something in the closet." It's like the skeletons in the closet. It's your clothes. so it's really tough to say, "I'm gonna deal with this. It doesn't fit me now. It doesn't make me feel good now. It's not comfortable now.

Tia: I'm gonna get rid of it." So I'm giving myself permission to live in the now, and to let go of things that no longer serve me, and to do for myself what I consistently do for my clients. Allow myself to live in this new chapter where I look different, my body's different, it feels different, and to allow my closet to love me back. We talked about that in episode one,

Amber: We sure did

Tia: I chatted about one of my clients. Her body had changed significantly, and she needed to do this massive reckoning of her own closet. And my, recommendation to her was say, "Your closet needs to love you back. you're loving all these things in your closet unconditionally, whether they actually feel good on your body or look great on you or not, but your closet needs to do you that service back." ugh, I don't know if that makes sense, but I, I need to let my closet love me back. When I open my closet, I want to feel like, dang, I'm so excited to put on whatever's in here, no matter what it is. Which requires me right now to declutter a whole bunch of things that are not fitting my body.

Tia: And man, that's tough when, like, last year's stuff fit, but now this year it doesn't fit. Hoo-wee, man, I'm like, gosh, ugh, so hard. Um, but it, it is worthwhile. It's worth doing because we are so much more than our bodies, and we are so much more than what's on the scale or what's on the tape measure. my self-worth is not attached to my size, and so I need to balance that out, you know? So

Amber: absolutely.

Tia: my whole backstory. That's what I'm giving myself permission to do, is letting go of the clothes that don't fit me and do not feel comfortable on me, and allowing myself to buy the clothes that do.

Amber: That is, that's huge.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: this is something that I work with, one-on-one clients with all of the time. I mean, this is something that comes up when we're working to improve our relationship with food and body. this is a big part of it, those clothing things, how we're getting dressed, what we're confronted with when we're opening the closet door, and how it makes us feel, and how that can, set the tone for how we feel about ourselves for the most of the day.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: a couple of things come to mind. One, this is where that society messaging comes in, because I'm guessing this experience would feel different if your closet wasn't working for you because you opened it and all of the clothes were too big for you.

Tia: Yeah. Yeah. Solid point.

Amber: still requires the work to go through, still requires the investment of getting new and different clothes, but the emotional piece feels different because of what society has taught us. As, as part of my, intuitive eating training, I learned about something called the cycle of socialization. Now, I am not an expert in the cycle of socialization, but I do find it very helpful to understand the, broad strokes of it, there's essentially five stages of it, and how it shapes the way we view our world. I look at it through the lens of weight stigma and anti-fat bias and how those things are reinforced by society because that's the work that I do.

Amber: But really, these social identities that we have, so be it gender, ethnicity, the color of our skin, body size, age, ability, socioeconomic status, religion, sexual orientation, all of those things really come with this like societal expectation and story around it,

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: that, however we value those things or don't value those things has really been shaped by hundreds of years of cultural norms and beliefs, we learn these beliefs unknowingly. We're not examining them. They're just, like, handed down to us, and that's what's happening through this cycle of socialization. So it starts, we're born, and things in the world already exist, so there's already a certain standard and a certain way that people are treated or act or whatever. We have no control over that. We're showing up. We've got nothing. we're, we're crying when we're hungry, and we're, we're sleeping a lot.

Amber: That's about it. that first socialization, when we start to become a little bit more aware of the world, it comes from the people closest to us. So our parents, our relatives, caregivers, they're showing us through their actions and their words what societal norms we should be following. And at that stage, we're not questioning it. We're just like, "Oh, yes, these are the people that care for me, and this is what we do, so this is what I will do, too." And again, this is not like, what is the, uh, like, therapy thing where it's like, "Oh, it's always the mother's fault," is like that kind of therapy

Tia: Yes

Amber: is, not to blame the mothers or the fathers or the grandmothers or anything like that.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: born into the same so- cycle of socialization and kind of learn these same things in the same way, and they're doing the best they can with what they know. It,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: down to that, when we know better, we do better.

Tia: Yes

Amber: we don't necessarily. We don't know better.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: these, these norms, so things about, like, body size, like you were just talking about, get further entrenched into us as we go out into the world, and we are then influenced by teachers or coaches or doctors or things we see on TV or the music we listen to or w- what someone says at church or whatever it is. We're then seeing these messages, and they're doing a couple of things. One, they might be reinforcing what we've already learned at home, and I find that's true with a lot of the body-based messages. They're pretty consistently across the line, smaller is better.

Tia: 嗯。

Amber: that seems to be where society is at, and almost doubling down at this stage,

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: can talk more about at some point. or we might find that we hear messages that challenge what we've heard at home or from our caregivers or loved ones.

Amber: And that might kind of rub us the wrong way, or that could bring in some of that they're different than us or us versus them. it really depends on, the situation, how that, comes to us. And then there's also these enforcements that happen through this, cycle of socialization. So it's not easy to go against social norms. There's rewards and privileges for going with the flow. I mean, you can think about this in terms of the patriarchy. You know, like, if you're like a middle-aged white man, you don't have to try very hard, and you're still gonna get the promotion. You're still gonna get… You know, like, that's just how society is set up.

Amber: I've heard this, our networking group. We have a lot of really wealth advisors and financial advisors who work specifically with women, and almost every single one of them that I've talked to has said one of the reasons that they do the work that they do is because the systems were set up to reward men and work to

Tia: Wow

Amber: men. And so they're trying to work within the system that exists to spread that wealth around and make it work for women, too. And that's just an example of those enforcements. And if you go against the enforcements, you're the troublemaker. You don't get the promotion. You're silenced. You have rules applied differently. So society really does create the stage and then reinforce everyone going with that flow.

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: And the result, especially when we think about it related to body size, that those who have thin bodies are experiencing thin privilege, whether they're aware of it or not,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: fear losing that privilege. So even if you're in a smaller body, you live in fear of your body getting bigger.

Tia: Oh my gosh

Amber: body, you're trying to perform that. You're trying to make your body smaller by

Tia: Oh my gosh

Amber: or whatever it is to be slightly more accepted. So it's, it's working against all of us. Like, even

Tia: Yeah

Amber: the current, societal ideal of whatever it is, there's this fear of losing it and what that might look like.

Tia: Oh my goodness, I've never thought about it that way. Yeah. Mm-hmm

Amber: so what, what can we do about it? Like, I sound so doom and gloom. Like,

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: just the way

Tia: Yeah

Amber: it now? and it is one of those examples where if we do nothing and say nothing, that same cycle is going to continue.

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: bodies are still going to be the idealized bodies. white men are still going to be the CEOs of most companies. if we're not- doing something to change those things. They're not going to just change by themselves. So we need people who have a certain level of power or privilege in the current system to be allies and to build that community and to educate and challenge and disrupt the cycle.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: so that's where, I might be a fat lady, but I'm also, a middle class white lady, which means I can do and say a lot of things

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: have it blow back on me. being able to stand up and say, "Bodies of all shapes and sizes can be healthy, are valuable, deserve respect," is, one tiny part that I can do in that against what is socially acceptable when it comes to bodies.

Tia: Yeah. I love how you framed all of that because there… I, yeah, I agree with you. There are so many things that are just the way they are, and if we do nothing, it's just gonna continue down that stream. And that applies to social justice in all shapes and colors,

Amber: sure

Tia: every single kind. I could go on and on about that, and I'm sure we will in future episodes too

Amber: it definitely shapes a lot of the work that we do with people, 'cause it's these expectations about how one keeps a home and how one takes care of their body or feeds themselves. And just to give credit, Bobbie Harro is the person who outlined these stages, and is, is one of the, the people that really pioneered the work around understanding the societal impact on how we, how we view things and kind of those cultural norms.

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: talking about cultural norms, it shows up in the show Friends. I mean, we had

Tia: It does

Amber: hinted at Monica and Fat Monica, that story arc in the show last week, but Tia, it kind of fits right into what we're talking about today, doesn't it?

Tia: Mm, it totally does. Yeah. So Monica in the show Friends, when she was a teenager, she was portrayed as lazy, food obsessed, socially invisible, and The show just leaned into every horrible stereotype about being fat. And her transformation, quote unquote, into thin Monica was framed as her glow up and made her worthy of success, which is really, ugh, that did not age well. That did not age well.

Amber: It didn't

Tia: yeah. So thin Monica was the, quote unquote, "real Monica" that the world got to see, the organized, successful, desirable woman. here's the show message, that you need to earn your place in the world by shrinking yourself down to an appropriate size. And our podcast, our Hey Monica podcast, is here to flip that and give people permission to exist exactly how they are right now, not after their glow up. Nobody needs a glow up in order to be successful, and we need to really fight against that in our society. We need to be able to show up exactly how we are. And here's the thing, Monica would have been just, or could have been just as successful of a chef no matter her body size.

Amber: Yes

Tia: and her abilities have nothing to do with her body size. Oh my goodness. we're here to just shout from the rooftops that, Monica, you are loved and seen and appreciated just the way you are, and you do not need to be thin. You not, you do not need to be a certain pant size or a certain number on the scale, Monica. Hey, Monica,

Amber: Yeah.

Tia: you are just fine the way you are. You are wonderful the way you are

Amber: Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. And I'm thinking, there was one episode, I don't remember how this resolved, but there was an episode where I remember Monica saying to Chandler at one point, I think when they were trying to get pregnant, "Will you still love me if I gain all the weight back again?" just that that is even a talking point that comes up in the show, and of

Tia: Wow

Amber: off for humor in some way. I don't remember exactly what his response was, but I was like, "Well, that's just something we don't need." But also,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: ways, that was such a relatable point to Monica for anyone who's had body struggles, because anyone who has lost a significant amount of weight in their life knows that people treat them differently when they are in a smaller body than when they are in a larger body. society really

Tia: So interesting. I shared a little bit of my story with body image. do you wanna add anything about y- from your angle?

Amber: in thinking about permission and, like, giving myself permission, I would say I probably have not always been great about giving myself permission to do things, but I have a long history of going against society's expectations. but it's only been really in the work that I have done with learning more about intuitive eating and applying it to myself and really understanding more of the social justice arc in terms of, bodies and learning more about the patriarchy and all of that, that I've been able to go against expectations without having the guilt and shame of being different. So a few of the things that come to mind in how I have been different and felt othered from society,

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: in the work that I do today. So that anti-diet approach, like, that is not what people expect. I've had a lot of very interesting conversations when I tell people I'm a nutritionist, and they have these automatic assumptions about what it is I must do. You

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: or doing, elimination diets or whatever it is. what their view is depends on, what their thoughts on food and body are, so it's

Tia: Yeah. Yeah

Amber: hear just what the assumptions that people have.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: I'm also childfree by choice, and that is, um… I mean, I think our government is currently actively trying to fight against people being

Tia: Yeah. Hmm.

Amber: and there's a lot of people who don't understand that. it's just never been a thing that has called to me. I mean, there were definitely times in my life where I was like, "I don't know, maybe I'll have a kid," but it was never like, "Oh, I must have a child. I feel like that needs to be a thing."

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: I'm also in a long-term relationship, but I'm not married, and that is also very confusing to people, and I often get the question, like, "But when are you getting married?" And it's like, well,

Tia: Oh my goodness.

Amber: never.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: I'm also self-employed. I mean, I did work in corporate America for a number of years, but I always had a less traditional path. my first college experience was culinary school, and I worked in catering and restaurants after that, which was a little bit weird 'cause that meant I was working nights and weekends, 'cause that's when people have parties.

Tia: I d- I did not think of that, but yeah, that makes sense

Amber: so my just, daily living schedule and timing was, was different from a lot of my friends who had more traditional jobs. and then later in life, like in my mid to late 20s, I went back to college, and that's when I studied, dietetics and food science and got into corporate America. even as soon as I was in corporate America, I was like, "Ugh, I'm not cut out for this." all of those, societal expectations just were, rubbing up against me. Like, I was, I was the weirdo who wasn't married, who didn't have kids, like all of these things. And people just didn't quite know what to do with me.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: I'm also not on social media. I left social media about five years ago, so I'm, I'm that person too. I mentioned I'd went to culinary school. I actually dropped out of a very traditional college where I was going to school to be an elementary school teacher to go to

Tia: Yeah

Amber: school. So like, even that, like I went to one semester and, and left to go to culinary school.

Tia: Hmm

Amber: when I was a kid, my parents were divorced, and no one else's parents in the area that I lived were divorced. So I was, the kid who had divorced parents and, what

Tia: Man, were you in a small town or

Amber: No, I was I grew up in Duluth, which is not, I

Tia: Oh yeah. Okay.

Amber: small town,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: it, it had definitely more people had, I would say, like traditional family values and, relationships more than… I feel like in the news and in the media, divorce was portrayed a lot in the '80s, which

Tia: Yeah. Yeah

Amber: in my real world, people I knew,

Tia: Yeah

Amber: if I had… Maybe I had like one other friend who had divorced parents when I was

Tia: Oh, man.

Amber: like

Tia: Oh, that must have been hard. Yeah.

Amber: and then I've always, even as a kid, I was fat, and so that also just made me a little bit different. I've always been very aware of like body things because I was always like the little fat kid. I learned at a very early age kind of the things you're talking about, like now your weight feels like something you need to manage.

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: I learned that before puberty that that was a

Tia: Oh my gosh

Amber: know, diet messaging is handed down through

Tia: Yeah

Amber: society, so it's like those were things that I learned very early on. So it took a long time to unlearn those things and give myself permission to just like have the body that I have, figure out how it feels good to take care of my body. I am a more active person now than I was at any other phase of my life. I would say as a child, I hated any sort of physical activity for the most part.

Tia: Hmm.

Amber: but now I work out almost daily, and I know it makes a difference in my mental health. but it hasn't changed my body. You know? doing a spin class for 45 minutes three times a week and going on seven-mile hikes, like not changing my body. But it is giving me, a sense of strength. It helps me sleep better. It helps my mental health. So like there's different reasons, and I had to find those reasons because I was taught you only exercise to lose weight, and that never worked, so why would I exercise?

Tia: Oh my gosh. Can we pause there for a minute?

Amber: Yeah

Tia: So I don't know why that has never occurred to me

Tia: Because my entire life, exercise has always been surrounded with, it's to make your body healthy and strong, period. Yes, it does make your body healthy and strong, but there are so many other reasons. Just like you said, it helps you sleep better, it helps your mental health. The- I'm sure the seven-mile hikes are, like, an amazing time for meditation if you choose to do that while you're hiking. You're out in nature, you're breathing fresh air. Like, okay. of everything in this episode like, that's the one really big… There are so many takeaways, but that's the one takeaway for me, is like, holy buckets.

Tia: If I just change my mindset around working out and make it something that I'm excited about or something that I can be like, "Oh, this is my meditation time,"

Amber: Yeah. finding something you actually

Tia: is, that such an alarming thing for me? Not, not alarming, but like, why is that such a revelation?

Amber: Yeah. It's interesting. It's also interesting the message that you got, if I heard you correctly, was that you exercise to be healthy and strong.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: the message I got was you exercise to get skinny

Tia: Hmm. Mm-hmm

Amber: And then that didn't work.

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: even further,

Tia: Yeah, so then, yeah.

Amber: with moving my body and, like,

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: So it's like, well, I'm doing the thing that they said I'm supposed to do, and it's not working. So it was quite a journey to get back to a place where I could look at moving my body in a way that wasn't about trying to shrink my body, and I was doing it for

Tia: Wow

Amber: get h- you know, to be healthy, to feel strong, to

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: like, all of those things.

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: Well, that was a lot. Hi, everyone. Welcome to

Tia: Yeah, We dove deep. We dove deep. Now maybe you can get a small little insight into how our first lunch conversation went from, "Hi, I barely know you," to, "Let me tell you my life story," to, "Yeah, let's absolutely start a podcast."

Amber: Yes. I feel like a lot of the things we talked about today, this is not the last time we will be talking about them,

Tia: probably not.

Amber: for sure. But,

Tia: All right. Well, should we go into what's working now?

Amber: Absolutely. Let's do that. So my current what's working now, and has been working for a number of years, is that I read before bed. I used to be a person, back in my corporate America days, I would, fall asleep with the TV on. Like, put a sleep timer on the TV, and, my biggest fear was that the sleep timer would go off before I actually fell asleep. So I would

Tia: No

Amber: most nights falling asleep to something like The Golden Girls, and at some point I was like, "You've gotta stop doing this. This is not, this is not helping you in any way." It was really a form of escapism, 'cause I did not like the work that I was doing at the time. So I made a point to switch my habit to reading a book before I went to sleep. Now, I've been doing that I would say off and on for over a decade, but I went back to grad school at, at, at one point during that. So my most consistent reading habit started post-grad school. I needed a little recovery time from all of the required reading.

Amber: but I have read a book before going to bed every single day since November of 2019. So that's like 2,400 days more of reading, as of the recording of this episode. And I'm not usually a streak

Tia: Yeah. Yeah

Amber: can come with a lot of, again, societal expectation things.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: but that is one streak I am proud of and hope to continue doing for a long time. So reading before bed. It's a nice calm-down. It's always fiction, you know. Yeah, I love it. How about

Tia: That's amazing. I am allowing myself to reorganize one space at a time. And, can I be super honest? Oh, shoot. Here we go. Here we go. Okay.

Tia: the reason I started Room For Serenity, this professional home organizing business, is because I personally felt the overwhelm of how hard it is to stay organized with kids. I feel so much connection with the, fictional character Monica, the before and after. Like, when I was single living on my own, everything had a place, everything had a home, everything lived in that place, lived… Like, I had no one interrupting that flow. It was so streamlined, beautifully organized, and lovely, and serene. And I find myself now married with kids and two dogs constantly striving to get back to that, and feeling like, uh, hmm, what's the word?

Tia: Like a fake. What's that word?

Amber: Fraud?

Tia: I kind of feel like an imposter.

Amber: imposter. Yes

Tia: Yeah, I kind of feel like an imposter, because who am I to be the owner of a professional home organizing company when I am daily like, "Gosh, I really wish I had my kitchen in order. gosh, I really had, like, our TV console area without stuff cluttered on it"? I get to it one space at a time. I do. And I love organizing. I am a geek about it. I love it so much. But the reality of my life right now is young kids, two dogs, and a husband, and a really busy life running two entrepreneurial businesses. I don't have the time. it's the cobbler that… whose kids don't have shoes, that kind of situation.

Tia: Oh my gosh, if I could just organize all day long, I'd be the happiest person in the world. I love it so much, but man, it's hard. So that's where I'm allowing myself to organize one space at a time. It is a marathon. It is not a sprint. I just finished, reorganizing my daughter's room because it no longer… Every phase needs a reorganization, and she has no- she's no longer in an infant stage. So the changing table had to go. The crib had to go. The new twin bed had to come in, and there were other organizing systems that we needed to add to her room that now fit her lifestyle better as a five-year-old than it did when she was a 12-month-old.

Tia: So that took a weekend and a half. and now it functions so much better, and it's just lovely. But man, it took a lot of time and dedication to be like, "No, this weekend I am doing this, and I am doing nothing else but this, and I'm saying no to everything else. I'm not doing the dishes, gosh darn it. I am going to organize her room." Oh gosh. I am Yeah, I'm an organizer. I love organizing. But man, it's like you've got an entire house to organize on top of just life. Gosh.

Amber: Yeah,

Tia: Yeah, so it's hard keeping up. Yeah, I would like to hire myself. I wish I could get paid for organizing my own home, but I don't. And so the only way I can really get by is if other people want me to organize their spaces, which I love to do so much.

Amber: Right. But you have to,

Tia: Oh my goodness.

Amber: you know,

Tia: I know. I know.

Amber: in your own house.

Tia: Oh my gosh

Amber: does that give you going into other people's homes? Because you're

Tia: Oh, so much.

Amber: Like,

Tia: So much empathy. I-- like, and that's why when I say I come in with zero judgment, who am I to judge? Oh my gosh, I know what it's like. It is hard. And I also recognize that every stage of life requires a different system. So even though you may have had everything organized five years ago and a home for everything five years ago, man, life probably changed a lot in those five years, and you probably have systems that worked back then that don't work now. So it requires regular upkeep and regular, like, revamping

Amber: I'm trying to prevent myself from launching into what could be an entirely new episode, but I f- I feel like all of the things you said mirror meal planning and eating with people too, because your lifestyle dictates how meal planning needs to happen in your life. Like, if you don't have very much time, can't do the elaborate, recipes that take hours to put together on a regular basis because you literally just

Tia: No.

Amber: That's something I've

Tia: Yeah

Amber: frequently mentioned when people go from being single and

Tia: Yep.

Amber: to

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: and how like, "Oh,

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: to, you know, throw a dinner party every Saturday night and spend the whole day cooking, and it was no big deal." And it's like, that doesn't work anymore, and so we need

Tia: No

Amber: and adjust.

Tia: I can see a lot of parallels there too

Amber: Yeah, I mean, that might be why we started a podcast, just

Tia: Yeah. Yeah

Amber: All right. I think that's all for today. We'll cut ourselves off. We'll revisit some of these topics again soon. But if you liked today's episode, you can support the show by telling your friends or leaving us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Tia: If you have questions about the show or suggestions for future episodes, you can send us an email at heymonicapodcast@gmail.com. All show notes and links are available at heymonicapodcast.com

Amber: Tia helps busy professionals with kids who have amazing systems at work, but no energy left to create organized systems at home. You can book a free consultation at roomforserenity.com or get some organizing tips and tricks from her on Instagram. You can find her at room_for, that's F-O-R, _serenity.

Tia: Amber supports individuals exhausted by dieting who want to improve their relationship with food and body. You can learn more and book a free consultation call at wholeyounutrition.com. Amber also hosts a virtual community and co-working space dedicated to planning realistic, satisfying, and nourishing meals that actually taste good. Find more and join the collective at mealplanningcollective.com

Amber: Hi, Monica

Tia: Bye