The One About Clutter Culture

Amber: Hey, Monica

Tia: Hey, Monica

Amber: Welcome to Hey Monica, the podcast that helps you drop the perfectionism to make space for what really matters in your home, in your food, and in your life. I'm Amber, a weight-inclusive licensed nutritionist and founder of Whole You Nutrition and Meal Planning Collective

Tia: And I'm Tia, a professional home organizer and founder of Room For Serenity. On today's show, we are talking about clutter culture and why we have so much stuff. But first, confessions. Amber, do you wanna kick us off?

Amber: I do. I'm, I'm keeping with the clutter culture theme in my confession. I have a sewing room. It's not really a room. It's a q- quarter of the basement. There, there's no walls around it. and it's probably the least organized space in my entire house for a couple of reasons. one, it's the basement, so extra things just kinda get tucked into the basement. we remodeled my office space last year, which meant bringing office furniture from an external office in, and all the furniture that had been in the space needed to be, given away or moved around or whatever. So there was stuff that just got put in that space without… it fit.

Amber: It was good enough, but there wasn't really thought to how the room flows or how I'm using it. And the last project that I worked on down there, it just felt heavy. the space itself had this sort of presence to it, which is not really what you're looking for when you're doing a creative project. So I knew, I knew I needed to do some sort of, reorganization thing. instead of working on the new shirt that I thought I was going to work on last weekend, I decided to move a bunch of furniture around. So I shifted a few things around, and I realized that everything, had a storage container and, and kind of a place to go, but, like, the storage containers didn't fit on the shelving that was in there.

Amber: So a bunch of stuff was, like, on the floor, and so I ordered some new storage bins that fit on the shelves that I moved to a much better place in the room. And, and part of it is also that my style of sewing and crafting is a lot of thrifting and obtaining supplies for free or low cost, which means you kinda take them when they're available more than, "Oh, I'm going to do this project. I will purchase the things I need for this project, and then I will do this project." I have a pretty big stash of fabric that I've gotten from different places over the years, and a very big stash of yarn as well.

Amber: And so it just all needed a little bit of a reorg, but it's just so funny how, uh, just the, how you can physically feel the energy of a space.

Tia: Mm-hmm. Yeah

Amber: it's not complete yet, but it's feeling much, much better, so it still needs a little more attention. How about you, Tia?

Tia: I don't know enough about feng shui, but it makes me think about feng shui. And doesn't, isn't that a little bit about energy of a space?

Amber: Yes. Yes. Yeah, and like where you put things in relation to like doors and windows and

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: things can flow around, for sure. I would love, on a future episode for us to do like a deep dive of like how do we organize and store materials for our hobbies

Tia: Oh, yeah. That would be fun. I would like that. All right, so my confession, I believe that we mentioned in the last recording, that was in June, that I still had my Easter baskets up, on the top of the fridge area that hadn't been stored away in the garage 'cause

Amber: Yes

Tia: inaccessible place to reach. My g- my car is parked right in front of that spot. So you had said that you would be able to tell the audience if I had completed that task by the time we record next, 'cause you can see me. Nobody else can, but you can see.

Amber: Yeah.

Tia: still there. They're still there.

Amber: it's about 10 days later, and I still see some Easter baskets on our refrigerator

Tia: it is early July. and I still have my Easter baskets. I did not put them away. But here's the thing. Life happened. Life happened. And here's… We-- All I will say, without going into a ton of detail, is we had some pretty major water damage in our kitchen before we left on vacation. And then we went on vacation, then we got back from vacation, had to deal with all the insurance stuff, and then now I'm catching up on a bunch of work stuff. And so did I take care of the Easter baskets? No, I did not.

Amber: kind of the least of your concerns

Tia: that is my confession. The Easter baskets are still in the kitchen, but you know what? I was dealing with other kitchen stuff last week.

Amber: And they are safely on top of the refrigerator, so they weren't part of the water damage and therefore did not need the attention that other things needed

Tia: this episode about clutter culture, it will, it will actually tie into this visual clutter piece because every time I see those Easter baskets, it's like a to-do list item that hasn't been checked off the list yet. It is mental clutter as much as it is physical clutter in my mind, and I can't stand it, so I really do need to take care

Amber: so interesting that you linked it to our clutter culture episode because honestly, I'm thinking a lot of that reorganization I did in my sewing room

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: I read this article,

Tia: Oh my

Amber: right before that weekend. I feel like I was just more aware of my surroundings after reading it, which I guess, let's let the listeners in on what we're talking about. So we had mentioned that we're talking about clutter culture this week, and you had sent me this really fascinating article from the UCLA magazine, and it was called The Clutter Culture. the article was published in 2012, but it was based on a study of more than 30 families in Los Angeles back in 2005. I love people like this. They opened their doors. They didn't, try to hide or clean or… they were really honest with, with the people that were doing the study.

Amber: And I think what is discussed in the article, which Tia, I'll have you fill us in on some of the, the details, is definitely still true today, maybe even more true can you give us a little more of a recap on what the study discussed and what the article covered?

Tia: Absolutely. The study, as you so beautifully described, was about following these different families around the greater Los Angeles area and, taking photos, videos, doing interviews, all about the stuff in their house. And, they started taking saliva samples during the study, And it turned out that the amount of stuff in their home environment greatly impacted their daily stress levels, it was the mothers who had the highest level of daily stress. they noticed different wording between the moms and the dads. The moms would talk about the stuff and the clutter and the amount of things in different spaces and a lot of shame behind that.

Tia: And the dads would very proudly point out the items in the room, like their favorite character that was on a shelf somewhere or their favorite, sports team poster the dads would take pride the stuff that was displayed and not really mention anything about the clutter or the amount of stuff And they-- it was like their comfort space. So researchers noticed a correlation between the number of objects that families put on their refrigerators and the rest of the stuff in their homes. Super interesting correlation. So it actually made me take a look at my own refrigerator I have about six photos. They're all of either nieces, nephews, or my own kids, and then about six pieces of artwork, probably a dozen magnets, a small checklist of things, and a newsletter of upcoming community events.

Tia: That's just the front. There's more on the side. So, hmm, how am I doing?

Amber: That's so

Tia: got

Amber: interesting. I did pause at that point in the article when they were talking about the kitchen and the refrigerator being this hub and a microcosm of, their larger home. And I was thinking about my refrigerator, and on the front I have one tiny magnet in the top corner. That's it. I do have some stuff on the side. the side you can't really see has, recycling information and, city garbage r- rules and dates and all of that. And then I have plants on magnetic shelves on the other side.

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: So I feel like maybe that does reflect my space a little bit.

Tia: Based on what I can see of your space, it is it's very tidy.

Amber: I've mentioned in past episodes, I really am very sensitive to the, visual clutter, really bothering me.

Tia: Another thing is that the study found that kids' stuff tends to encroach on a lot of other shared spaces in the home. And I find that interesting 'cause when I was doing my MBA, I did a research article. It- nothing super formal, but I did a research article on this very topic, and I interviewed probably 20 different people, not a ton, but different moms of kids between the ages of newborn and five years old. And I was asking them about kids' clutter specifically, and what does that look like in their lives, and how does it impact their daily lives. And one of the things that came up that I will never forget is one of them had specifically said, "I feel like I don't have any space in the house that is my own anymore.

Tia: The living room is full of toys baby appliances of all sorts the kitchen is full of all of their utensils and special bottling needs, and my room is full of their laundry. And like every space that used to be dedicated to one thing in the household now has kids' stuff all over it, and it stresses me out." I feel like a lot of other parents who might be listening to this might feel the same. It is so difficult 'cause kids are not as affected by this as we are, I can understand why a lot of the people in this study felt like their kids' stuff was just getting into every little nook and cranny around the house

Amber: I've definitely heard this from clients too, and it's not just little kids. as those kids get older, sports equipment ends up, you know, it's just whatever it is, it takes over the space. And in addition to the kids' stuff, I've also heard it about their husbands. so in a, cishet relationship that going back to the study, how the men didn't see the spaces the same, didn't cause the stress. They had it as like a sense of pride. So these things taking over space in the house from kids and spouses, and the moms are left like, "I don't, I don't have any space for myself.

Tia: I will definitely acknowledge that there are some men out there, and dads out there, that are far more organized and tidy than their wives.

Amber: For sure

Tia: But societally, are judged more for having untidy spaces than men, because of the patriarchy.

Amber: Yep.

Tia: Did we say we were gonna

Amber: I don't…

Tia: lot in this podcast? I

Amber: I know we've definitely talked about it before. We joked about it turning into a drinking game.

Tia: Yes. #patriarchy, here we go again. because of the patriarchy, because women societally have been known to be the ones to be the homemakers and the home caretakers, Therefore, there is more pressure on us, even if it's not something that we enjoy doing, which most of us don't. we're the ones that are gonna be more critically judged for it. Imagine walking into, a female executive's office that's untidy, and what might immediately come to your head about who she is as a person. And then go- walk into an executive male's office that's untidy, and immediately the excuses that come to mind

Amber: Yeah. Oh, it's just how he is. Oh.

Tia: That guys just don't know how to organize

Amber: Yeah. Or, "Oh, he's so good at his job. It doesn't matter.

Tia: the immediate judgments, and it's all, it's all because of that damn patriarchy.

Amber: I do think that it varies from person to person, which totally makes sense. Most things do. But you are right. The patriarchy, that societal pressure. if somebody came over to, like if one of your husband's friends came over and the house was untidy, the comment would be about like, "Oh, your wife's really slacking off around here." I'm not saying your husband's friends would say something like that. But in this stereotypical sitcom family situation, it'd be "Oh, what's your wife been doing? 'Cause this place is a mess." And it's

Tia: I know.

Amber: got two hands, you know where the vacuum is

Amber: You can clean too.

Tia: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh

Amber: one thing that really struck me in reading this article was how many of the material items that were found in people's homes were purchased as a reward. They're working really hard, they're stressed out, they're away from their family, so they're buying things to give them that little, feel-good dopamine rush,

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: for their kids. They mentioned a lot of times if you're working long hours and you're away from your kid, you feel a lot of guilt,

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: one of the ways that people try to feel better about it is, give your kid something. "I can't give them my time, but I can give them this toy." And this, becomes this cycle where it's like you're buying stuff to feel better, but then the stuff is making you feel worse because it's just there and around you, and you get stuck. And how, how do we break out of it?

Tia: Yeah

Amber: be really tricky. I Wanted to look up and see if there was any additional research that happened since this article was published in 2012, from this study that was done in 2005.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: And the interesting thing was a lot of the studies that I found, studies and articles, not all of them were official studies, most of them did reference this 2005 study and this book and article that were written about it.

Tia: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amber: but in one of them, they talked about how there is, an evolutionary piece to clutter being stressful.

Tia: Hmm

Amber: and the idea that being able to, survey your environment and your surroundings to find danger is really important. So if there's, like, too much stuff and it's hard to be able to see what's going on, that can be really stressful. and there was one, it was a tw- 2025 study in the Journal of Environmental Psychology, and it found that people who considered their homes more cluttered had lower levels of well-being and life satisfaction. So it wasn't just the stress thing. It's like this overall, you're just, less happy in your life. And they also had higher levels of negative feelings. So not great for well-being and longevity all around.

Amber: And the other thing that they noted was that clutter also reduced the psychological attachment that people have to their home. So if their home is really messy, they feel less, ownership and connection to their space. It doesn't have that, cozy, homey feeling that I think people crave in their homes. It just feels… Probably because it feels like a source of stress.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: feel cozy if you feel like there's just piles of papers coming at you from every angle.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: and they also noticed that office clutter is similar. So going back to that male executive with his messy office, office clutter does increase emotional exhausti- exhaustion and reduces productivity and work satisfaction.

Tia: It is hard for me to get started in the day if I've got stuff all over my desk. I need, I need a clear space, and it's not always clear. I will be honest. I don't always have a clear desk, but it makes me so much more productive, and it makes my mind clearer to do my work when I have a tidy desk

Amber: Yeah. I, and the science is backing you up on that too, that taking a couple of minutes to clear your space can make it a lot easier to focus and be productive at work as well

Tia: Organizing is also, is a really big business. are now renting out units, like storage units, for their stuff. This study was done in 2005. That was before Amazon Prime. Oh my goodness, how easy it is for things to just arrive at your doorstep, and not only is it the stuff that's cluttering your house, but then the packaging. If the packaging doesn't get put away right away, then you've got boxes that are ready to be broken down and put in the recycl- I could go on and on.

Amber: Yeah, uh

Tia: putting stuff in storage units

Amber: Oh my gosh.

Tia: such a big thing

Amber: That is like a big and growing business in the US. I feel like anytime anything is torn down, a storage unit is put up in its place. I cannot believe the number of storage units that exist and continue to be built. in one, I think this was in a, like, storage business insider magazine kind of thing, but it said that one in three Americans is currently renting a storage unit, so storing things outside of their home.

Tia: That is wild

Amber: And the other thing that was bonkers, I don't know if I copied down the stat, but there is some huge number, I wanna say it was like upwards of like 75%. We can put a link to the actual fact in the, in the show notes. But m- many people don't use their garages for their cars. They use them only to store stuff.

Tia: A lot of people.

Amber: Yes. I'm guessing our listeners are among them. I know when I moved into this house when I first, was, looking at it during an open house or whatever, the garage here was… There was not a car in there, it, but it was packed to the gills with stuff, and the basement was as well. It's, it's crazy for me to think about how many, hanging rods and clothes and everything that was just stuffed into the space. I do know that… So yes, it's stressful to have stuff around, but a lot of times people are taking, like renting storage units or putting things in their garage or in their basement because there's some sort of emotional attachment piece.

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: of times they're, inheriting furniture from a family member who has passed, or, kids are growing up, but what do we wanna keep and what do we need to get rid of? And it just feels emotionally heavy to go through some of this stuff. So not only is there just the r- rampant consumerism that we've all been trained to do, so we're constantly getting stuff. Buying stuff makes us feel better, at least momentarily. But then getting rid of the stuff also has this huge emotional weight to it, which I'm sure you experience with… I mean, you talked about

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: through closets with clients and how that emotional piece and having to kinda shift the mindset around that is a big piece of being able to, let go of some things.

Tia: It absolutely is. And I don't think that our culture really prioritizes any sort of like one thing in, one thing out. So if you're buying something new, are you thinking about the inventory management of it? Because whether you like it or not, what you have in your house and what you have in storage, what you have as your possessions, those are gonna be things that you will need to constantly manage in your inventory of stuff. whether it means that you have chosen to take it, put it in a bin, stick it in the garage, well, that feels like you've dealt with it, but it hasn't, because then if you keep doing that with more and more stuff, then all of a sudden you don't have a garage to park in.

Amber: Great.

Tia: Or,

Amber: shelf to put a bin on, a bin to put the stuff in. Like, you just run out of space

Tia: Exactly. Or you might need some storage for, like, a new bicycle or for something new that you want to experience or enjoy, but then y- you don't have storage space in your garage for it. So then suddenly, the bins don't fit in the garage, so they go to a storage unit, or the bins don't fit in the garage, so then they go downstairs to the guest room, and then your guest room is filled with stu- So no matter what, like, no matter what, every single thing that you own is something that you're gonna have to manage as an inventory item. And it sounds so dull and boring and bland when I say it like that, but it sh- if you can think of it like that, then it might perhaps make you pause before you click Buy Now on Amazon again, because then it … Before you click that Buy Now button, think about, "Where will I put this thing?

Tia: it's gonna go in my closet, and I can't move my hangers in my closet, 'cause there's too much stuff in it already, then what else is gonna come out? Or maybe what three or five things are gonna come out before I put that thing in? How are we gonna make sure that this is sustainable over time?" 'Cause we can't just keep on buying things. And Christmas, oh, my goodness. I know

Amber: Yeah

Tia: celebrates Christmas, but for our family, we do, and it, it should be a very joyful season, and it is for the most part, but it does stress me out just knowing the amount of stuff that's gonna be coming into our house and how much more stuff I now need to make space for. So I almost feel like around, the late fall time period, I'm just wanting to purge as much as I possibly just to make space for whatever's coming in during Christmas. How crazy is that?

Amber: piggybacking on the emotional kind of piece of it that I was talking about earlier, gifts come with that whole emotional piece too, 'cause it's like even if it's not something you really want or you really like, or your kid really wants or really likes, it's like, well, it's from grandma. We can't get rid of it. It's from grandma. But

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: You can get rid of it. It's okay. I know you're the organizer, but I am a hardcore let's purge this stuff, let's throw it out, thank you for your service, moving on.

Tia: Well, I completely agree with you on that one. do not hold onto it just because it's a gift. The person that gave it to you gave it to you because they thought that you would enjoy it. But if you don't enjoy it, I don't think they would want you to hold onto it just for their sake. And if they would want you to hold onto it just for their sake, that's probably not the type of person you should be holding stuff, for. Because, 'cause

Amber: then they need the therapy, not you.

Tia: They do. That's more of a them problem, not a you problem.

Amber: I think this would be a really interesting episode to do a full kind of deep dive on. But we also have some cultural things that are adding to this. Maximalism is a big design thing right now, so covering every space of every wall with a picture, and having shelves, and having all the little trinkets, and all of that. the pendulum has swung. For the early 2000s, we were all about minimalism. We were all sad beige and gray. And now it has swung, and we are colors and stuff everywhere. And I don't know, I'm hoping we can find a happy medium somewhere where we can have color but not too much stuff.

Amber: the other, social media trend that is pushing… I mean, so much of social media is just pushing consumerism, isn't it? But, like, all of the restocking videos that people do with their little containers and the little individual things, and they're tapping their nails on things. I hate that sound.

Tia: my

Amber: I'm not even on social media, and I'm aware of these things, so that is how much they've, infiltrated society.

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: but is that organizing? is putting a bunch of little things into another container organizing, or is it aesthetic consumerism? Is it like, buy more stuff and look at how pleasing it is to see stuff in these perfectly, lined drawers?

Tia: It makes me think of these reels that I've seen with people storing scent boosters for their laundry. I don't use scent boosters because I don't like things with a lot of fragrance in them, but then it makes me feel like I need to have it for some reason because I saw it on a reel and it was stored so beautifully. Isn't that silly? So I don't… I've, I've not purchased them. but yeah, if you're buying the thing 'cause you've been influenced to buy that product,

Amber: Yeah

Tia: hard no. Just n- mm-mm. But then on top of that, it's the containers that people put things into, so suddenly you feel like the container is gonna be the solution to all your problems. If I get these storage containers and I label them so beautifully and then I put my stuff into them then I will have a picture-perfect, beautiful pantry. It starts with letting go of the things that you do not need. So if you buy containers for things that you don't use anymore but you feel like you should keep, then it's buying containers for containers purposes, not actually… It's not reducing your stress. It's adding more stuff.

Tia: The

Amber: Yeah.

Tia: just adds more stuff

Amber: I feel like the promise that we're sold by influencers and on social media is if we just have these things, if our pantry is just that organized and looks that nice, that our whole life will magically change. We will be more attractive. We will have more money. We will be happier. these are the things that we're… I mean, that's advertising, right? Like, if you just have this one thing, that was one of the big reasons that I actually left social media, is I just felt like it was nonstop people trying to sell me something. And I'm like, "I don't need any of this stuff." But you start to think you do when you've seen it for the 5th, the 10th, the 20th time.

Amber: There's a reason they build in all of those TikTok shops and buy direct from Instagram Those weren't there when social media first started. It wasn't about shopping. It was about, saying hi to your friend.

Tia: Yeah.

Amber: it's really changed because capitalism

Tia: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Amber: I was looking for kind of updated information, and one of the articles that I came across that I believe also referenced this UCLA article that we've been talking about, but it was by all things, a health insurer had posted this. It was, like, on Michigan's Blue Cross Blue Shield website. But they were talking about mental health and the science behind decluttering and, all of the things that we've been talking about today, the stress that comes with clutter. And they gave seven tips to help declutter your home. So I thought it would be fun… Yeah, I thought it would be fun if maybe I tell you what their tips were, and you could weigh in on each one if it's something that you do recommend when you're working with clients or if it feels a little, I don't know, not, not the first thing to focus on.

Amber: How does that sound?

Tia: Yeah. Yeah. Let's start

Amber: Okay. And I will include a link to this article as well, so if anybody wants to, to check it out, they can. the first one, which is a big one and I do agree with, but I don't know if this is the first place we start, but it is, do the internal work. So the idea is we need to address the internal issues and the why we have clutter before we can tackle it for good, which I do agree. we need to figure out, like, why is it that we keep collecting stuff? Is that the first step?

Tia: I wouldn't say it's the first step, but I would say that would be the thing that keeps people organized over a longer period of time. And I would relate this to

Tia: eating healthy and having a healthy lifestyle shouldn't be titled "This is my diet." when you are choosing a different lifestyle walking on a regular basis become the norm, or eating more fiber and protein become the norm for you, not a fad. It's not a fad. It's the norm. So apply this to the things in your home, and it starts to affect what actually enters your house before it's even there. So if you have a lovely grandma that says, "I would so love to give you my china set," but you know for a fact you will never use that china set, it is flexing the muscle of saying, is so kind of you, and that's so thoughtful.

Tia: I know that china set means the world to you. Practically, I will never use it, so I would really love it if you could gift it to somebody would use it." And the same thing before you even buy something online, saying no to the thing because you don't have space for it or because you were influenced by it.

Amber: understanding the why you're saying yes to something so that it's easier to say no. I do, I, I love that you brought up the kind of food and diet side of things, because I've said often when it comes to food and body and nutrition, it's usually not about the food. The food becomes a stand-in that means something else. It's filling an emotional hole. It's how we are coping with things. It is, tied up in the patriarchy, like whatever. I can go down a whole laundry list of things. But it is, it's like understanding why we reach for a certain snack at a certain time is key to changing that habit in the long run.

Amber: So I do think that internal work is really important both in nutrition and eating, and also in taking care of the stuff that we have in this world

Tia: You don't have to start with the why, but if you don't consider the why, then the long-term change won't stick

Amber: it can be challenging because it can be hard to have space to address the internal why when you have so much stuff around you. So it's like sometimes doing that sort of initial c-

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: declutter, purge, organize can help give you the space to be able to think about that. And I do see that. I can mirror everything to food and, and diet. Uh, sometimes getting yourself eating on a regular schedule is what's needed to be able to understand some of the behaviors that are happening at other times of day too. So sometimes you need to make the space to be able to do the internal work, which can be challenging for sure.

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: Okay, tip number two. Their second tip was start in the entry. So consider starting in your home's entryway, creating one organized welcoming space that can make the rest of the home feel less overwhelming and may encourage you to continue decluttering. What do you think about starting in the entry?

Tia: I don't think it's a bad idea. I would say if you don't know where to start, then starting in the entry is an awesome place because it is the very first impression that you have when you come into your home and the first impression that guests have when th- they come into your home. So if you wanna be welcomed to a clean, tidy space at least within the first 30 seconds of entering your door, sure, that's an awesome place to start. But usually what I chat with my clients about is what is your biggest daily stressor that if we could wave a magic wand right now and have it fixed, it would alleviate so much of your daily stress?

Amber: Yeah, that was kind of my objection too. And this is also coming from somebody who works at home, so I don't enter my home that often. I think of starting like, similar to what you said, like where's the biggest pain point or where are you spending most of your time?

Tia: Я.

Amber: if you never see your entryway, who cares what that spot looks like? You never see it. so I agree, like starting either the place that weighs on you the most or the place you're spending the most time, because then you're seeing it, like we talked about earlier with the clean desk

Tia: Yeah, and I think bedrooms are so under prioritized, and also the space where we hide the most of our shame. Can you… Like, just think about how many times you've had guests over and you've just taken a bunch of the stuff that's sitting around your house and you've just tossed it on your bed or in your bedroom and closed the door, and you're like, "That's my private space.

Amber: But talk about a great place to have it clean and organized, because you could go in and close the door and be like, "Oh, the rest of the house is insane, but I've got my little sanctuary."

Tia: Yes. I think it can be deprioritized because we put so much emphasis on what, uh, what do other people think when they see my house, and do I wanna host in, in a space that looks like this? And so then they'll think of the spaces in their home that reflect back on them the most versus, like, if I don't have to care about anybody else's opinion about me whatsoever, I think, and I could be wrong here, but I think people would feel so much more peace and calm in their home if their bedroom was organized. It's where you sleep at night. It's where you're supposed to be resting,

Amber: the next one, I think this one's a good one. Work in short increments, so just spending like five to 10 minutes at a time addressing clutter rather than trying to do everything all in one day, all at one time

Tia: Mm-hmm. I think this is really great for people who are in a really busy season of their lives, and it is near impossible for them to find a solid one-hour or two-hour chunk in their day to really tackle an entire space. So it's amazing how much you can get done in ten to fifteen minute increments as opposed to like one solid hour-long chunk. and it, it's effective. and sometimes that fifteen minutes suddenly turns into a full hour, and you didn't realize how much time had flown by, and you feel so much better because truly the hardest part just getting started. So if, making it a smaller amount of time makes it feel more digestible and easier to do, then start with a smaller amount of time.

Amber: I think we, underestimate how much we can get done in a short amount of time and overestimate how much we can get done in a long amount of time. Which sounds so counterintuitive, but it is very surprising how much you can do in a short amount of time that can give you, again, that little, like, dopamine zing of having a clean drawer or, one organized shelf in the closet, and that can compound over time. The other thing I like about working in short increments is, I've talked about this with meal planning, it shifts it from it's a project that has a start and finish,

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: because taking care of your stuff never is done. you talked earlier about kind of that maintenance piece of it and that inventory and having to manage that. that's not done just because you put it away one time. it's gonna come out, and you're gonna have to put it away again.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: in short increments gets you more into that habit of oh, this is a thing that has its own sort of rhythm and routine to it versus a project that you do and it's finished. And I talk about that with meal planning. It's like you don't just get to meal plan one week and do a bunch of meal prep and then never have to do it again. It's like, no, you need to do it again the next day or a few days later or whatever it is. it's going to have to be done again. And so if we stop thinking about, "I just need to do this and get through it and finish it," a day spent in the kitchen, if you don't love cooking, doing a bunch of meal prep for the week is not going to make you like cooking more.

Amber: It's gonna make you hate Sunday because you decided Sunday's the day you're doing a thing you hate for eight hours.

Tia: Totally

Amber: think organizing and cleaning are like that as well. If it's not your favorite thing to do, devoting an entire day to it is not gonna make you like it more

Tia: That is a solid point. Mm-hmm

Amber: Okay, the next tip was ask for help if you're overwhelmed. Ask a trusted friend, family member, or professional

Tia: Yeah,

Amber: help.

Tia: over here.

Tia: Yeah. Yeah. truly, it doesn't even need to be a professional organizer if you don't want it to be. It just needs to be somebody who you trust will tell you no, and stop it, and you don't need that. we all have somebody like that in our lives who will come and be like, "You don't need 25

Tia: Unless it's a kids' craft area maybe. But, like, the highlighters, the amount of highlighters that people have sometimes, it's like you probably only need about eight of those unless you use them constantly. But no,

Amber: Yeah. And there's, there's a lot of power in body doubling too. So having someone else there with you, whether it's a professional, a friend, or a family member, makes it easier to do the stuff because that person is also doing the stuff. Okay, the next tip is test whether you'll miss it. So fill a box with items that could be donated, seal it, put it in your closet, and if it hasn't been opened in six months, donate it unopened to charity

Tia: Solid no. I would not recommend this.

Amber: Okay, what would you do instead?

Tia: have had good intentions put something in a bag or put something in a box, and how long does it sit in your closet realistically before it actually gets donated? And how many times have you actually rifled through that box again to be like, "Did I, oh, did I actually get rid of that tank top that I really love? No, I should go back and check and see if I have it," and then all is for naught. Like, it's just the time had been wasted. So I realistically, no, I feel like maybe a- people can disagree with me on this, but I, in my opinion, you need to make… It's, it's a deferred decision. That's what it is.

Amber: Hmm

Tia: Because you're choosing not to donate it in the moment, which means you need to choose again later to donate it, to actually donate it,

Tia: making the choice once and making the trip once and having it done. Like, choose whether you're gonna get rid of it, and then get rid of it.

Amber: I totally understand that, but what do you do for people who are like, "But I'm not sure if I still need this," or, "I still want this," or they have, that emotional connection thing where they're like, "I don't know if I'm gonna feel guilt and regret if I get rid of something."

Tia: there are so many variations of whether to keep or not to keep, and, sometimes it, it lands in the category of, "But what if, what… I might need it someday." I would say if it's under $20, get rid of it, 'cause you can always buy it again, and more than likely you're not gonna need it again. guilt or shame of getting rid of something that was something that was gifted to you or made for you. If it's guilt-related, don't hold onto it. Don't hold onto guilt. It's not gonna help you. It's only gonna hurt you, so let go of it. I love helping clients work through the easier things to let go of, like the extra pens, and the extra pencils, and the extra Post-Its.

Tia: Those are super easy to get rid of. So that the decluttering muscle is stronger over time so that when, so we can slowly build up to those things that are a little bit more of an emotional weight, but then by that time, their decluttering muscle is a little bit stronger,

Amber: okay, this next one, so this is tip number six. It feels like something that doesn't belong in a list of helping you declutter your home, but nonetheless, here's the suggestion they make: address digital clutter. So computers, phones, they're saying files on your desktop or notifications on your computer

Tia: I would say this wouldn't be my top priority because I, I think the physical places that we inhabit, at least for me, are a heavier mental weight than digital clutter. But I do think it's something that should be addressed eventually

Amber: I agree, it's not… I don't know. I don't think it belongs in a top seven declutter your home list.

Tia: Yeah

Amber: All right, the last tip, which I, I already know you're going to agree with this one. Tip number seven, don't try to be perfect.

Tia: Mm-hmm

Amber: And the example that they use is, if you're using something a lot, a coffee maker is the example they give, there's no need to hide it so that your counter is completely clear. there is that thing where having a clear counter space is so desirable, again, going back to

Tia: Mm-hmm.

Amber: influencers and the aesthetic.

Tia: Absolutely don't do something just because somebody online said it wasn't something that you were supposed to do or something that you were supposed to do. Do s- do it because it makes you happy, because it works with your lifestyle and the way that your family functions. And, even when it comes to storage containers, I'm not opposed to people using shoe boxes or, random little trays for things to sit on or sit in. As long as you have a home for everything, you know where to find it, and it's not cluttering your space, awesome. . Amber: So we had these seven tips. Is there a tip that you would give to somebody that was not mentioned in these seven tips?

Tia: And I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but is there something that you often start with, suggest, or recommend to people when they're wanting to declutter their space? Hmm. The first thing that comes to mind is that it's the hardest just to get started, so starting there. And whatever gonna help you get over that hump, like if it's hiring a professional organizer even just for a three-hour boost session to get you started and get the momentum going, great. Or if it's inviting a friend over to help you out, or if it's just making it fun, just getting started is the hardest thing,

Amber: you said something about a three-hour boost session, which felt very specific. Is this something that you offer? Like, how does it even work, and how can people find out more about you and your services?

Tia: thank you. I don't have something that's called technically a three-hour boost session,

Amber: you should now.

Tia: minimum. do have a minimum of at least three hours to get started. It could be for an office, it could be or for a kitchen, and it's, it's far we go, depends on the size of the space, the amount of items in the space, and how quickly clients are able to make decisions on what stays and what goes.

Amber: And I'm getting this sense that you are not the person that we're hiring to just come in and do stuff for us. Like it is a working together process.

Tia: I definitely need the clients on site for discussing what stays and when, what goes. And then after we've gone through the inventory of things and what's staying and what's going, then we talk about the zones of where things should live, depending on how frequently they're used. So I start to kinda map out the space either verbally or in a little sketch, So it's sort of a little bit of strategy around things go. And then after that, it de- it depends on the client whether they wanna be around for the rest of it or not. Once I get a better understanding of what's actually staying and what zone it's gonna be in, I can be completely hands-off for purchasing the containers, labeling the containers, and putting the things in the containers.

Tia: That doesn't require the client to be there. But sometimes they prefer to be there, and they

Amber: Sure

Tia: with it, and then it goes faster, so then you pay less. But, it's totally up to them.

Amber: they can find you at where?

Tia: They can find me

Tia: at roomforserenity.com

Amber: Love it. And we'll have all of that linked in the show notes too, of course.

Tia: Absolutely

Amber: All right, we've talked a whole lot about clutter culture, and I think I've said this with every episode, I'm sure we will talk about it again Let's shift gears and talk about what's working now

Tia: I love it.

Amber: mine is silly. This is just a very silly one. in the last week or so, I got a little, article from The New York Times. So I get their morning newsletter, so that automatically puts me on lists for, breaking news. And the breaking news that I received one day was: When did bare nails become a status symbol?

Tia: Ooh, tell

Amber: so they're saying it's on runways, you're seeing people have either very light pink or, nude polish shades, or skipping polish altogether. They referenced, the show that came out recently, Love Story, about John John and Carolyn Bessette, and I th- you know, believe she had nude nails in probably both in life and in the show. but the reason it caught my eye is I have not painted my nails in so long, and it was funny to me because sometimes just hanging out, doing your own thing, and being yourself, suddenly you are on trend.

Tia: I love it

Amber: how about you, Tia? What's working for you right now?

Tia: All right. So what's working for me actually aligns a lot with the topic of the day, probably 'cause I was already thinking about the topic. the UCLA article was talking about kids' stuff kind of overflowing everywhere. And so not only give my kids an allowance so that they can purchase their own items. they want something, they can buy it, but then that gives them a little bit more of a pause. Like, "Oh, I wanna spend my money on that? Hmm, maybe not." And if they do wanna spend their money on the- on whatever that item is, then I have a little conversation about, "Well, let's think about where it's gonna live one- once it enters our house.

Tia: Do you have a space to keep that? Do you not?" And maybe you should get rid of something. And I'm like the Grinch of toys. I try to introduce them to the idea of like the one in, one out. Like, if you're gonna purchase something, then what's gonna give? 'Cause your space is already full. It doesn't work perfectly, but I try. that's my little tip. That's what's sort of helping right now

Amber: Yeah, I think it's an important lesson to learn. And learning it earlier, it means perhaps, maybe, maybe they will have fewer things on their refrigerator and into their house when they're adults themselves.

Tia: Maybe they'll do even better than me. I don't know. We'll see.

Amber: Well, I think that's all for today. If you liked today's episode, you can support the show by telling your friends or leaving us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

Tia: If you have questions about the show or suggestions for future episodes, you can send us an email at heymonicapodcast@gmail.com. show notes and links are available at heymonicapodcast.com

Amber: Tia helps busy professionals with kids who have amazing systems at work but no energy left to create organized systems at home. You can book a free consultation at roomforserenity.com or get organizing tips and tricks from her on Instagram. Her Instagram handle is @room_for, F-O-R, _serenity

Tia: Amber supports individuals exhausted by dieting who wanna improve their relationship with food and body. You can learn more and book a free connection call at wholeyounutrition.com. Amber also hosts a virtual community and co-working space dedicated to planning realistic, satisfying, and nourishing meals that actually taste good. Find more and join the collective at mealplanningcollective.com

Amber: Bye, Monica

Tia: Bye